E20 Cape York Hydrogen | The Project Bringing Green Hydrogen to Cape York’s Indigenous Communities for a Greener Future

Isaac [00:00:00] We at the Cape York Partnership acknowledge that this podcast is produced on the traditional lands of First Nations people, and we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging

Isaac [00:00:54] Australia is moving toward an emissions free energy future, as seen at the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Glasgow. Prime Minister Scott Morrison says that his government intends to power this transition through innovation and investment in new energy technologies. Investment in clean hydrogen, also known as green hydrogen, is one modern renewable energy source that has found itself in favour.

Scott Morrison [00:01:19] Technology will have the answers to a decarbonised economy, particularly over time, and achieve it in a way that does not deny our citizens, especially in developing economies, their livelihoods, or the opportunity for a better quality of life. Driving the emergence of low emissions technologies and fostering their widespread adoption is at the heart of our plan to reach net zero, and that's why we've set cost targets for clean hydrogen.

Isaac [00:01:49] Cape York is not just keeping abreast of the imperative to transition to cleaner energy and the economic potential of green hydrogen production. It's actually ahead of the game.

Tommo [00:01:59] We've had initial meetings with different groups around Australia and they've all been very interested in how advanced our project is. Most people are just talking about this on the ground level. What does this look like? How can we take advantage of this opportunity and when they find out how advanced we are and that we're effectively nearly ready to build, they're very keen to work on the partnerships.

Isaac [00:02:25] Welcome to Time to Listen! A podcast that gives us space and a platform to the voices of First Nations people and those working in Indigenous affairs. You were with your host, Isaac McCarthy, and today I'm speaking with the project lead for Cape York Hydrogen David Thomson and HDF Energy Project Manager Bryan Dumail. Cape York Hydrogen came into being two years ago as an initiative of the Cape York Institute. It involves the construction of two green hydrogen power plants located in the northern peninsula area of Cape York and in the Torres Strait Islands. The project has now received a grant for a feasibility study. David and Bryan have been overseeing the development of this project, and they join me on the podcast to describe the project, explain its viability and relevance to Cape York and the Torres Strait, and outline the economic opportunities that the project will begin. As the engineer in the room, Bryan also explains how green hydrogen energy is produced and why it constitutes a renewable energy source. I thank them both for their time and you, the audience, for taking the time to listen. Good morning, everyone. I am here in the podcast studio today with David Thompson, who is the project lead for Cape York Hydrogen, which has been birthed out of the Cape York Institute and also on the line via Zoom, we have Bryan Dumail, Bryan am I saying your surname correctly?

Bryan [00:03:55] Yes, it's good enough. Thank you.

Isaac [00:03:57] Good enough. Yeah, with my atrocious Australian pronunciation. Look, thank you very much to both of you for joining me. We've got a lot to talk about today about the Cape York hydrogen project. So let's jump right into it. Tommo, we will start with you. Can you please give us an introduction to yourself and what your role is?

Tommo [00:04:14] My name's David Thompson. I work for the Cape York Institute in the policy area, and I'm the project lead for Cape York Hydrogen.

Isaac [00:04:23] And Bryan, how about yourself?

Bryan [00:04:24] So my name is Bryan Dumail, the project manager from HGF Energy Australia. So my background is engineering, and I've been working on this Cape York hydrogen project with with David since the beginning, and I'm assisting in the technical definition of the project.

Isaac [00:04:40] Fantastic. David, what is Cape York Hydrogen?

Tommo [00:04:43] Cape York Hydrogen is a project based around replacing the diesel generation on Cape York that all of the communities have with a clean energy system based on hydrogen. And through this design, we were looking at creating employment opportunities not just in the construction of the project, but long term as well.

Isaac [00:05:06] We're mentioning hydrogen energy. You know, I assumed within that there's going to be hydrogen power plants. Where are these going to be located?

Tommo [00:05:13] Initially, we're looking at the two biggest energy users on the Cape York and the Torres Strait. One of them being the NPA, the Northern Peninsula a,rea and the other one being Thursday Island and Horn Island as well.

Isaac [00:05:26] Okay. And who will these hydrogen power plants actually provide energy for?

Tommo [00:05:31] They'll provide energy for these areas. Totally. So will be basically putting energy into the Ergon grid. So anybody who's getting energy off Ergon currently will be getting energy from this system.

Isaac [00:05:45] And is it reasonable to assume that it's these entire areas are dependent on Ergon energy?

Tommo [00:05:51] Correct. There's obviously areas not far from these towns that are remote and are on their own generation, but the the areas themselves, NPA and Thursday Island have quite a high power load, and we're hoping to provide around 80 to 90 per cent of their load.

Isaac [00:06:08] And now Bryan, we've we've brought you in on the podcast today, not just because you're a valuable partner of this entire venture, but also because of your engineering background and your engineering contributions to the project. You obviously have a lot of technical experience and expertise to offer here. Can you give us a bit of an idea of what these hydrogen power plants are going to look like on the ground? Con you paint us a picture for anyone who's never seen one?

Bryan [00:06:32] Yes. So basically, our hydrogen power plants are composed over of a solar photovoltaic plants. So it's a renewable energy plant, as you know, so it's plenty of solar panels next to one another. And then you have we also have a hydrogen facility, which is converting water into hydrogen to store energy and producing energy back from it from this solar hydrogen. So the plant looks like a regular renewable plants with a little hydrogen facility on the side that enable us to produce energy 24-7 from renewable energy.

Isaac [00:07:13] And how much space on the ground are these plants actually going to take up?

Bryan [00:07:17] Yes. So, for example, our plant in NPA is expected to take about 20 hectares, and the one in that will power for the island will be roughly 40 hectares.

Isaac [00:07:28] Okay, now Tommo, this for some people may sound not strange, but a little unusual. You know you hydrogen is a nascent but emerging power sort of initiative in Australia, and then you wouldn't reasonably expect one of the leading hydrogen projects to be located up in Cape York. Now, how is it that we came to this point? Why? How did this idea come to be formulated?

Tommo [00:07:57] Well, originally it came to be formulated when we were having a team meeting with Noel Pearson, who was looking for us to come up with innovative ideas to create opportunity, employment that hadn't been thought of before. And I've had an interest in clean energy for a long time, but clean energy that's viable and can provide load right through the day and night. So after doing my research, the only system in the world that could meet this criteria was the HGF system. And then I approached Noel and the team. I did my preliminary work and. I said, go for it. And after that, I contacted Ergon Energy and met one of their remote network engineers told them what I wanted to do, the design of the project, etc. He put me in contact with HDF. So we quickly found out that as I thought in my early research, that this was the perfect location. Not only had the CSIRO and the then head, Alan Finkel, announced that the northern parts of Australia were the perfect locations for hydrogen energy to be developed. It was also the remote communities on Cape York have huge diesel load. They're dependent on the ships bringing the diesel in, and they're very aware of the emissions of these plants as well. So this hydrogen based system could decrease the emissions by 80 to 90 per cent. So it made perfect sense. And the engineering work that we've done ever since has backed this up. And the Ergon Energy has been fully supportive as well because they know that there is a need to get rid of diesel generation on Cape York.

Isaac [00:09:44] Okay, and we're going to get into the economic benefits and opportunities of such a project in Cape York in just a moment. But look, it's it's also a bit of an unfamiliar pairing Cape York Institute Hydrogen France or HDF, as you referred to them before. So I want from both of you to tell me how exactly this marriage came to be. Bryan, I might start with yourself. Why was it that Hydrogen France was interested to work with the Cape York Institute on this project?

Bryan [00:10:14] That's a good question. The first thing first that we thought about is that we are in the remote location and the objective is to, uh, to improve the energy security and the energy independence. And we believe that this is the recipe to a successful economy developments. And so we decided to partner with Cape York Institute to bring valuable local knowledge to the project company as we understood that the importance of providing local benefits to the communities through the development of the projects, and that's our approach in each of our projects and in any countries around the world. We're trying to provide these benefits to the two communities.

Isaac [00:10:57] Once the hydrogen plants are operational, is that where hydrogen France's input is going to end on this project or will it be ongoing?

Bryan [00:11:06] It will be ongoing. So we are doing everything from this, from start to finish. At HDF, we are a project developer. So we are starting with the development of the project, the financing, the construction, the operation and the end of life. So we are following the project through this life cycle

Isaac [00:11:22] and Tommo from yourself. So you pitch this idea, you you know, you get the go ahead to it to bring it to life. Why hydrogen France? How does your attention turn there?

Tommo [00:11:33] Well, at the time it was the recommendation of Ergon energy when I met them, because after I said the type of system I wanted, it was just a lucky coincidence that Hydrogen France had contacted Ergon at the same time. So Ergon put us together right at the start. And then after finding out the capabilities of the company and what they wanted to design, it was exactly what we had in mind. But we, of course, were looking at the priorities for the benefits for Indigenous people, not just for clean energy. And that was through training positions, construction jobs and particularly long term employment for the operation of the plant. Whereas traditional solar and battery systems, they are just set and forget people just lock the gate, go away and that community has no benefit. We wanted benefit through all phases of the project, including a community benefit model, to come out of the project, you know, in partnership with the project company. So that's been the focus of Cape York Institute to get those benefits for the local communities

Isaac [00:12:39] and now a fundamental value that the Cape York Institute has in all of its projects. It's like, in essence, it's non-negotiable value is that their projects are Indigenous led. Now I understand that this project is no different, of course. Can you explain to us what that means to for this project to be Indigenous led and how it's being led by Indigenous people?

Tommo [00:13:03] Yep. So as you said, it is the most important ingredient for us. So after we've been getting the technical partnerships together to make sure these projects are feasible, then we have started the community consultation process on the ground to talk with the local groups, the traditional owners, the councils to let them know what we're doing and to bring them in right at the start of this project, not at the end. You know, like a lot of the time companies will turn up and they'll just say, here it is, and we want the communities involved from right from the very first steps. You know, so they can give us their input on what they would like to see in this project. And that's always been our priority and we're looking forward to getting back up into the communities early next year to continue these consultations to find out what exactly the community see in a good partnership.

Isaac [00:13:55] Brian, we're going to get a little bit technical here, so we definitely need your need your help now. You explained a little earlier that about how hydrogen power works, but now I really want to dive deep into that to help the audience understand what what this energy or why this energy resource is a relevant and viable option. And we need to understand that we need to have a general understanding of how the process actually works. So can you walk us through how hydrogen is actually going to be a source of energy and how that actually comes about?

Bryan [00:14:30] Yes. First, let me explain why we are, everybody is looking at hydrogen right now, and it will make sense then how it is working. So as you know, conventional renewable energy is intermittent. So, for example, a solar panel only produces energy when the sun is shining during the day. And so that's, with this thought in mind that we design these renewable plants and the use of hydrogen, because the idea was to create a power plant that can provide continuous renewable energy to the grid using hydrogen as a storage. So the objective is to use this hydrogen to to phase the intermittency of of the renewable energies. So our power plants are composed of solar panels, hydrogen storage and battery storage. During the day, we are producing energy directly on the grids, using the solar panels and all the existing energy that is usually lost in a conventional renewable plant is used to produce hydrogen. So we produce hydrogen and we store it during the day. And then when the solar panels are not producing anymore, we can we can produce electricity using this stored hydrogen. So this whole process is what we call the water cycle because we are using two different equipments. So one electrolyser that will converts the electricity to hydrogen and then a fuel cell that will convert the hydrogen to electricity. So this whole cycle is breaking and recomposing and water molecule and producing electricity from renewable energy. And most importantly, it's producing stable electricity from intermittent renewable energy.

Isaac [00:16:19] So the water molecule has to be broken to extract the hydrogen from it and then has the by-products of oxygen and more water. Is that correct?

Bryan [00:16:29] Yes, that's correct. So, so the electrolyser is breaking the water molecule, producing hydrogen that we store and oxygen that is released in the air and then using the fuel cell during the night, we are composing the hydrogen with the oxygen, and this reaction is producing electricity that we can use on the grid and water. So it's really a clean overall cycle that enables the production of stable electricity from renewable energy.

Isaac [00:16:58] Now what the audience might have heard just there is it's taking energy to produce energy. So and in someone's mind, they might think, Well, what's the point of that? You're just using energy to create more energy. How is the how are you actually creating an abundance of energy to be used elsewhere? Can you explain how much energy is produced from the inputs?

Bryan [00:17:18] So as I was trying to explain first, the Deauville concept works because renewable energy is intermittent and is basically free during the day and and currently in most renewable power plants, we are curtailing this energy, just throwing energy away. And so what we are doing is using this excess energy during the day to produce hydrogen. And so we are in the overall energy intensity of the process doesn't really apply here, and we don't have to look at it because we are using the excess energy during the day to store hydrogen that will then be very useful at night when the Sun is not shining anymore and we need energy and renewable energy. So that's why this whole cycle,

Isaac [00:18:05] yes, so so energy that is in excess, it would essentially be wasted because there's so much being generated from the solar panels during the day, then can be converted to a different energy source to be used at night time. Exactly. Okay, good. This is also green hydrogen as well. Can you explain to us what that is and how it differs to other forms of hydrogen, for example, blue and grey?

Bryan [00:18:24] Yes. So as you said, this is a green hydrogen. And there's so we heard a lot about blue and grey hydrogen. So green hydrogen is the one we are producing. So it's based on a renewable energy and the water through the electrolysis process. So this is the only form of hydrogen that doesn't generate any emissions for its production, and it's the most sustainable and cleanest form of hydrogen. So it can also be called renewable hydrogen. Then you have blue and grey hydrogen that are both produced from the process called steam methane reforming. And so this process is creating hydrogen and carbon dioxide CO2 and the difference between these two processes. In the case of the blue hydrogen, we are storing the carbon. And in the case of grey hydrogen, which is just released in the atmosphere, so blue and green hydrogen that's very, very carbon intensive and have a very big carbon footprint. The prince and the blue hydrogen is using this CCS process, carbon capture and storage. That is very expensive and that's not very effective. And to give you an example, not a single project has met it's carbon capture target so far. So these two form of hydrogen are very carbon intensive and very bad for the environment as opposed to this green renewable hydrogen.

Isaac [00:19:48] And Tommy, one of the disadvantages about fossil fuels or non renewable sources of energy. Coal gas oil is self-explanatory within the name they are non-renewable they are going to run out at some point. How abundant is hydrogen energy in Cape York or the what is the potential for hydrogen energy in Cape York and how long will this resource last us up there?

Tommo [00:20:13] Well, hydrogen is the most common element in the universe, so there's no shortage of it. And two thirds of the Earth is covered in water as people realise. And we can use saltwater bore water rivers pretty much any quality of water. So the sites themselves, as we're looking to move forward, we have to assess independent sites to see what water allocations they have or water availability they have. And as a focus of our project, we will make sure that we don't take any water that's existing in the community's water supply, so we don't decrease it. So we will supply our own water to the plant. And then the water that's coming off the plant can be recycled as well. We can give that back to the community on the outside of the plant.

Isaac [00:21:03] OK, so it's abundant. It is clean. Is it cheap energy?

Tommo [00:21:08] Relatively speaking, it is. This is a prototype system that the costs, of course, will come down as these plants become more popular. But having said that, the operation of this plant is still going to come in under the current price of diesel. So it's a really good place to start, and the federal and state governments both know that as well, because make no mistake, their number one priority is getting cheaper power and then the second priority is the clean energy. So it meets both of those criteria and moving forward, the prices are dropping every year. The prices for the equipment that we're using are dropping, they're getting smaller, et cetera. So we see a lot of potential for smaller communities around Cape York as well as the bigger communities.

Isaac [00:21:57] And that seems to fit with the announcements now coming out as part of the looming federal election campaign. Labour just promised recently that they would be committing Australia to a 42 per cent reduction in emissions, I believe, towards net zero by 2030, whilst also promising to lower power bills. So it sounds like what you're saying is that hydrogen could be a solution that works into those kind of plans.

Tommo [00:22:22] Absolutely. Particularly in the remote communities, these plants are perfectly suited, particularly with the you have to bring in a lot of diesel in these communities. It's either via truck or via ship. That's energy intensive as well. So this will be energy security for the individual communities. They will be producing their own energy on site. And as well as that, the energy could also be used for mobility options such as trucks and boats, so they can be converted in a longer term evolution of this project.

Isaac [00:22:55] Brian, Tommo here has just told us a bit about how the logistical burden for hydrogen energy will be less than it is for for diesel energy. At least that's what we expect, and also that it will result in greater energy security, potentially. So are you able to add any more to that about why or how this energy source will improve the grid in Cape York?

Bryan [00:23:21] It will improve the grid in three ways, Tommo already tell a little bit about it, but the first thing is energy independence by avoiding the shipping of diesel fuel by truck or boats that will be suppressed. Another thing is through its design the plant will add engineering the redundancy on the grids, which which brings more reliability because we are multiple equipment that can provide power on the grid, such as solar panels. The fuel cell. The battery system. And so all of this is increasing the reliability and the stability on the grid. And and finally, the last one, which is very obvious and we talked about, is the decarbonisation of the grid. So we are talking about more than 22,000 tonnes of CO2 that will be avoided a year that needs securing to more than 9,000 cars off the road. So these these are the three main points of the energy independence, the reliability of the grid and the stability of the grid and decarbonisation.

Isaac [00:24:23] So did you just say the equivalent in emissions reduction is 9000 cars off the road per year? Yes, exactly. Well, that's incredible. So a criticism of hydrogen energy is that it's it's energy intensive itself. Now, Brian, you explained a little bit earlier how this system, at least in terms of energy, is going to be circular, but it's also quite demanding on water resources. Can you explain just how much water is going to be needed to create the goal energy output and whether that's going to affect the water resources of local communities?

Bryan [00:24:56] Yes, that's a that's a very good question. And so often when we talk about hydrogen, we think about hydrogen production. So hydrogen production is based on the electrolysis process I explained before, so we are using water and electricity to break the water molecule and produce hydrogen that we store and then we can ship it and power things with it. And so this is pretty demanding on water. But the good thing about our design is that we have the whole cycle, as I said before. So we have the electrolyser that is splitting the water and we have the fuel cell re composing the water. And so what we are doing is we are recovering part of this water at the end of the cycle that we are using back at the input of our electrolyser. And so overall, we are decreasing the water footprint of the plants. And so to give you some numbers for both plants, the water needed to run for a year is less than the water containing five and a half Olympic swimming pools. So it's a very small amount that will enable us to power more than six thousand four hundred people on the Cape. Another thing is that this water will come from can be bore water or desalination water, so it won't affect the the local community water resources. And it will most likely be the opposite. We will be producing a little bit more than what we need, and we will give it back to the to the community.

Isaac [00:26:27] Yes, because a by-product of this process is water as well. What what happens to that water?

Bryan [00:26:32] Yes, this water is recovered. We treat it again and we can use it back in the cycle. So it is a part of the cycle is closed and that's why the water footprint is, is that small compared to other hydrogen production facility, for example.

Isaac [00:26:47] Now, Tom, I mentioned before the Labour government's recent promises relating to sort of the energy roadmap in Australia, but also in addition to that, the New South Wales government has recently announced and worth noting that the Liberal government has recently announced a $3 billion investment into the green hydrogen production, so the same kind of hydrogen that Cape York Hydrogen project plans on producing. How is Cape York hydrogen fitting into Australia's future energy roadmap?

Tommo [00:27:15] Two years ago, we started this project, and now all of the hydrogen is becoming in the public domain and state governments are talking about it. State and federal governments are talking about this roadmap, so we were well and truly ahead of the game as far as identifying the opportunity for Cape York and the potential and green hydrogen production is an evolution of the project that we're doing now. We're looking at small scale power production for these communities, but those plants can be expanded to create green hydrogen, potentially for local use or for export. And as I said before, that was identified by the CSIRO as a huge potential moving forwards, potentially exporting into the Asian market.

Bryan [00:28:02] I know that there's a few few hydrogen production plants that are being developed in Western Australia, in New South Wales, so it's really currently being developed. As you said, it's part of the national strategy. We really believe our project tick every boxes and will fit into this strategy.

Isaac [00:28:22] And I also know that your company is developing similar projects in other nations around the world. A key example being French Guiana in South America. So it sounds like this project is not only fitting into Australia's energy roadmap, but also the international one as well. Sounds like this is a relevant energy source in the international market.

Bryan [00:28:42] Yes. Yes, you're right. We are developing projects all over the world, and one of our most advanced one is, as you just said, is French Guiana. So this this power plant is based on the same design as what we are developing in the in Cape York and will power 10,000 people on the fringe of a grid. So it's very similar. And we're also working in several projects in South America, South Africa, Indonesia with remote communities, which is something that is that is happening right now.

Isaac [00:29:11] All right. So we've spoken about now a bit about how this is a viable alternative energy alternative and a relevant energy alternative. But what about the actual economic benefits or opportunities for the communities up in Cape York. Tommy, can you explain to us how this project is going to be economically beneficial for those communities?

Tommo [00:29:30] There's various things that we're looking at for the for the partnership with the project company. One of them is a community benefit model where as the community can get together and work out what they're lacking in the community, it might be something like they need internet or they need more water or something like that that we can incorporate into the design of the project company in partnership agreement with the community, and that would be basically agreed to through the consultation process that we're beginning. And we don't want to presume what the communities want. We want to talk to them about what they want, and then we will write these into the agreements with the communities so they will know that they have this not just in the present, but moving forwards as well.

Isaac [00:30:18] Bryan, talk to us about jobs, how many jobs are going to be involved in this project?

Bryan [00:30:23] And so there's two aspects of the job so that the construction and operation. So first, doing the construction, which will last approximately one and a half years, we will create a hundred and thirty jobs approximately. So these jobs will be basically, say, construction jobs at any any skill level.

Isaac [00:30:45] Sorry, Bryan, is that between both plants or just one plant?

Bryan [00:30:48] Yes. All the numbers I'm giving out are for both plants together. Then during the operation, there will be more than 30 jobs. So again, every skill level, so from people that will maintain the renewable the solar panels and the renewable plants. So it will be, for example, people that mow the lawn and clean the panels, technicians, mechanical and electrical technicians that will maintain the the equipments and then will have also engineers to manage the plant and make sure that it's running the way it's designed to. So there will really be all the skill levels involved in these jobs.

Isaac [00:31:27] And Tom, are these jobs going to be, recruitment for these jobs, is that going to be targeted at a local level?

Tommo [00:31:34] Yes, absolutely. We're going to target right through the process. So obviously these jobs will be quite high tech jobs based in the STEM fields. So initially they will need, you know, the technicians will be attached to these projects. But we want to attach traineeships through the TAFEs, potentially identifying what type of skills are needed and the project company will work with these organisations to create these training pathways. So we're hoping that we would get a transitional phase of people coming through this process and working for the plants. And then as these skills are highly valuable now in Australia and around the world, that we would see them being poached by bigger companies for higher pay most likely, and then keep a constant stream of people going through the community through these jobs, rather than people just sort of taking the jobs and staying there for life. For the institute, it's always been about continual opportunity and growth.

Isaac [00:32:34] And it sounds like the skills required to complete the jobs associated with this project very much fall within the STEM field. They fall within sort of engineering and mechanics and the like. And so people are going to need to be adequately trained and educated in that space. Is that also, I suppose a tangential benefit of this of this project is people are going to be up skilled in that way?

Tommo [00:33:01] Oh, absolutely. I mean, those jobs are certainly the most valuable and give young people in those communities the most potential for a good future without having to leave the communities. Because we, we know about orbiting and a lot of the young people in Cape York have to orbit out of Cape York to find employment and then hopefully come back. But what we're trying to create is something that they only have to leave for training purposes and then come back and they can stay in their environment if they want to, but have these highly qualified jobs and back to what Bryan was talking before about the actual type of jobs that have been created. The best thing about this plant is these jobs long term, the entire life of the plant, these jobs exist whereas a battery and solar solution, as I said before they lock the gate, walk away and there's no jobs for anybody.

Bryan [00:33:53] It's all about this co-design process and this community benefit model that we're going to implement several type of benefits, but it will be up to the station in negotiations.

Isaac [00:34:04] Tom the the project is occurring on determined Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land. Explain to us the consultation process involved here.

Tommo [00:34:13] Well, initially the consultation process is to explain to the local people what this project's about, what it can mean, etc. to just educate them on the possibilities. And then secondly, we will work out the site identification and then consult with the relevant Traditional Owner groups who are who have this land. And then we will go into full commercial negotiations with them for use of this land, so it won't be the traditional peppercorn leases that the state governments offer. It will be a commercial rate of return for this land, so that's a good opportunity. Even from that base rate for the communities to be involved, you know, and to get equity out of this project.

Isaac [00:34:56] I'm curious about how this project and how hydrogen energy can be scaled. Bryan, I might start with you again here. So this, we're talking about powering the grid in Cape York, where the population numbers are in the thousands, perhaps the low tens of thousands, including the Torres Strait Islanders, as well. So whilst a large geographical area, a relatively small population compared to the rest of Australia is hydrogen power something that can be scaled to suit the needs of, you know, let's say, even large cities like Brisbane and Sydney?

Bryan [00:35:27] That's a good question. And of course, yes. The best analogy would be using solar panels and solar power as an example, so you can have just a few panels on your rooftop and produce energy for your house. But you can also have a huge field of solar panels that are going to produce gigawatt of electricity and power cties of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people so hydrogen power is the same. We are using this renewable energy as an input and then we can same principle as the renewable plant. We can scale up all the equipments and have a bigger storage and basically power use hydrogen power as a renewable continuous power for any size of town.

Isaac [00:36:09] I want to know if this project, which is being led by the Cape York Institute, has inspired others around the country. And what is the potential for similar projects in partnership with other Indigenous communities across Australia?

Tommo [00:36:22] The potential is huge and we've had initial meetings with different groups around Australia and they've all been very interested in how advanced our project is. Most people are just talking about this on the ground level. What does this look like? How can we take advantage of this opportunity and when they find out how advanced we are and that we're effectively nearly ready to build, they're very keen to work on the partnerships, particularly the community benefit structures, what they look like. So recently, we were in the Northern Territory for an Indigenous led forum on clean energy for Indigenous people. How to integrate with these companies. How to negotiate. So for us, it was great to hear the work that they're doing and what these partnerships look like and what the indigenous people want in these partnerships. So that was a great learning for us and for them, it was a great learning, the company structure, what we've created with HDF. So we're going to work forwards to help each other basically in this and develop these projects, hopefully around Australia as well.

Isaac [00:37:32] So I'm just going to map out the stakeholders involved here. So you've got the local communities, the, you know, predominantly Indigenous communities on the ground and then you have the Cape York Institute in partnership with hydrogen France. You have Ergon Energy have no doubt no state and local government interested in the project. Now in that equation, I'm going to remove Cape York Institute. Does this project still come to life without the input of Cape York Institute?

Tommo [00:38:01] No, it doesn't, because the most important part of the project in HDF recognise this from the start was an interface with the communities and understanding of the way the communities worked, the way that they do business and the subtlety of negotiating agreements. So for us, that's key moving forwards, you know, as I said before, to not be telling communities, we want to ask them what they want and negotiate this and just that structure of agreement HDF recognised as being critical to the success of projects like this in Indigenous communities around the world.

Isaac [00:38:39] Bryan, I'm going to throw this same question to you, but from the perspective of Hydrogen France now, do you think that this project here in Cape York would be possible without the input of the Cape York Institute?

Bryan [00:38:51] No, it wouldn't be possible. As I said, we decided to partner with the Cape York Institute because we recognise the local knowledge and the bid to develop this kind of project, as they said, we have been to the Cape for a trip and the first consultation with the communities, and I and I understood how different it was to negotiate with them and the process that was involved and without a company like CYI we couldn't have developed these kind of projects in this location.

Isaac [00:39:22] Tell me about how this idea is being received in communities.

Tommo [00:39:26] The idea has been received really well. They see the potential in it, and particularly the Torres Strait has a keen interest on decarbonising their islands. Some of their islands already are directly under threat from climate change, and they've been looking at many options for how to decarbonise the area. And there's been many schemes have been through the islands, but nothing has been successful or viable. So I think they recognise that the potential for this, not just for the bigger islands, but for us potentially to export the hydrogen created from our plant to the smaller islands as well. So there's a huge interest on what this looks like in decarbonising the Torres Strait, as well as the business involvement from the communities from the ground up and the NPA. Very similar story. The NPA, are very proactive business people, and they see the opportunity in this as well. They see if they have the potential to generate their own energy and it's clean, why not?

Isaac [00:40:30] My final question for both of you relates to vision. Brian, I'll start with you. When can you illustrate the vision that you have or that your company has for this project?

Bryan [00:40:40] For HDF, I mean, the product we have been developing all around the world have been in remote communities because it's currently the most the places where you have the energy that is the most expensive and the less reliable. So we are addressing this with our solution. We are providing energy independence in these remote communities and we feel like Australia and for example, Cape York, North Queensland. All of these areas have a lot of communities that are reliant on diesel fuel and that that have issues with the electricity supply. So we believe that our solution is able to to bring reliability and energy security in these locations. And we see plenty of opportunities in all over Australia and especially on the Cape.

Isaac [00:41:24] And although the project is smaller in scale than powering a city, for example, do you still see this kind of project having a profound impact on emissions reduction in Australia?

Bryan [00:41:34] Yes. This kind of a power plant design the use of renewable and hydrogen could replace any remote diesel generator or any remote thermal plants. And I think on the long term, that's something that the government want to achieve in Australia, and all over the word, that's replacing all of this fossil fuel by renewable and hydrogen is easier to to bring the storage and the reliability and the security on the grid .

Isaac [00:42:03] Tommo, from your perspective, as well as you being a representative of the Cape York Institute and Cape York Hydrogen, what's the vision that you have for this project?

Tommo [00:42:10] The vision we have is for energy security, for the people in Cape York, whereas they are providing their own energy. They have an equitable partnership with the people who are providing this energy and as well they have a long term interest in the project, both from the environmental outcomes, of course, but for the future of their communities, economically, for the for their children to be able to get these jobs, the quality of these jobs locally moving forwards and hopefully keep more of the young people in communities. And also on the bigger picture, we see it as the rollout right through Cape York. There are so many communities that are suitable for this and we would love for them to be involved in this transition to hydrogen energy with a particular focus on equitable partnerships.

Isaac [00:43:04] In conclusion, to me, it sounds like we have a project that not only brings economic and educational benefits for the Indigenous peoples of Cape York and the Torres Strait Islands, but also an opportunity to transition to a cleaner, more reliable energy grid. Have I put that correctly, do you think?

Tommo [00:43:22] Yeah, absolutely.

Bryan [00:43:24] I think it's a it's a great way to put it.

Isaac [00:43:26] Great. Well, look, I'm going to watch this project keenly and with a lot of anticipation, as I'm sure a lot of people around here will. I thank you both so much for your time to come in and explain this project and how it was the idea was formulated. And Bryan, thank you so much for distilling this down into its essential ingredients. What we need to understand and making what I suppose can be a complex topic more, more relatable and understandable for us. Thank you both.

Tommo [00:43:55] A pleasure. Thanks, guys.

Bryan [00:43:56] Thank you Isaac.

Isaac [00:44:00] Thank you for taking the time to listen to keep up to date with future episodes of the podcast hit the Subscribe or follow button on your podcast app of choice. You can also follow the Cape York partnership on Facebook and LinkedIn, where we provide regular updates. We invite you to give the podcast a rating and review, which can be completed on the Apple Podcasts, Podchaser and Stitcher App. This episode has been brought to you by the Cape York partnership.